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  • LOTD

    Filed at 6:40 am under by dcobranchi

    Another installment in the apparently perpetual tale of stupidity that is Fayetteville:

    Bible complaint is an overreaction

    Geri Weaver’s child did not have to take the Bible (“Bibles in school infuriates mother,” Nov. 18). She did not have to let him keep it if that was her choice. How about the choice of the other children in the school?

    In many cases, school is the only place some children might get a meal, see a role model or have a chance to get a Bible that they desire. Does she take and use that money that has “In God We Trust” written on it?

    Carolyn Howell
    Ayden

    Yes, wanting to see that the schools uphold the law means that she shouldn’t use money. You just can’t argue with logic like that.

    39 Responses to “LOTD”


    Comment by
    Nance Confer
    November 27th, 2007
    at 9:22 am

    LOL — I’m just trying to picture the little kid sitting there in school yearning: “Oh, if only I had a Bible, then life would be worthwhile.”

    Nance


    Comment by
    don
    November 27th, 2007
    at 9:46 am

    If that stack of books contained the Satanic Bible, do you think she’d be saying the same thing?


    Comment by
    JJ Ross
    November 27th, 2007
    at 1:24 pm

    “Not June Cleaver” was commenting today at Snook that in her state, HEKs must take an annual shcool test even though the required “passing” score is ridiculously low. We were just saying it still matters; it’s an impermissable intrusion of the state on their minds, and it can affect them, just being exposed to the holy high-stakes test as if it had special authority and weight above their parents or their own thinking, for example.

    I think if religious folk don’t want the state to require a free stack of Hitchens and Harris and Darwin books be offered in every vestibule, fellowship hall and sunday school classroom — they’d better be very careful what arguments they use to advance their private beliefs onto public spaces, or as academic facts to be taught by secular authorities and decided in university faculty meetings.


    Comment by
    COD
    November 27th, 2007
    at 2:55 pm

    In NJC’s state, the religious folks can also claim a religious waiver and get out of the testing requirement completely.


    Comment by
    JJ Ross
    November 27th, 2007
    at 3:18 pm

    Wowser, another double-edged sword! Isn’t that be exactly the kind of legislative “success” for homeschooling that leads the secular state to conclude justifiably in return, that religious education materials aren’t interchangeable — perhaps not even compatible — with secular university prerequisites? For science, say (thinking of the HSWatch list discussion currently heating up)


    Comment by
    Daryl Cobranchi
    November 27th, 2007
    at 3:47 pm

    Yeah, I’ll say. I think I just called Kay and Paul “ignorant.” 🙂


    Comment by
    sam
    November 27th, 2007
    at 7:52 pm

    Given our increasingly cashless society and the fact that my debit card does not in fact mention any god or godess I do not often use money that refers to god or trust. My trust is that the credit union keeps treating more respectfully than the bank ever did, but that’s neither here nor there in relation to the lame ass argument mentioned in the post.


    Comment by
    JJ Ross
    November 27th, 2007
    at 8:27 pm

    It’s not just public schools that give the short end of the stick to the minority while busy serving the mainstream btw.
    I have a longstanding (many years) beef with our private dance studio, which won’t schedule classes on Wednesday evenings because of “church” activities. Thus we are there too late on Tuesdays and Thursdays to do much community musical theatre, which ironically doesn’t rehearse on Weds either, for the same reason! So Wed is wasted from our pov and the rest of the week is needlessly (again from our pov) thrown into inconvenient and often exclusionary conflicts.

    And we all pay more for the same classes on this schedule, because the studio spaces are underutilized but the rent doesn’t go down.

    It’s bad enough that the whole day is wasted waiting for all the rest of the people to get out of school, but throw in wednesdays and sundays and we spend a lot of time all dressed up with nowhere to go.

    It’s like how you theroretically can build your own computer with components from all over, except then you can’t get them to fit into one case with each other, or the settings turn out to be purposely incompatible to discourage that very thing. (We just went through this at my house.)

    Building an abundant education in the real world from component experiences is theoreticallyreat until you realize all the waste and frustration in not getting with the set schedule and culture.


    Comment by
    JJ Ross
    November 27th, 2007
    at 8:29 pm

    But I wouldn’t write a stupid letter to the editor complaining about it! 😉


    Comment by
    Cavalor Epthith, Esquire
    November 28th, 2007
    at 11:19 am

    The more I see of Fayetteville, NC Ser Daryl the more I think you would be no better off in Fayetteville, AR. What is it with the American South?


    Comment by
    Mimi
    November 28th, 2007
    at 11:48 am

    I think the Bible complaint is an example of the extreme hostillity that a lot of people have towards the Gospel and towards God Himself. If it was ANY OTHER book, this incident would have been a non-incident. Thefact that it is the BIble, which many people believe to be God’s Manual for Living, The Absolute Truth, the Container of Right and Wrong, Rules to Live and Die by, this caused this Fayetteville woman to make a federal case out of it.

    Why do you really think she objected?

    Mimi


    Comment by
    Daryl Cobranchi
    November 28th, 2007
    at 12:00 pm

    Errr- Because she’s not a Christian and objected to a Christian NT being pushed on her son in the supposedly secular schools which her taxes are helping to pay for?


    Comment by
    JJ Ross
    November 28th, 2007
    at 12:07 pm

    What really made her do it?
    Now let me see, could it be-e-e- — SATAN??
    (click soundbite six)


    Comment by
    JJ Ross
    November 28th, 2007
    at 12:27 pm

    Remembering the heyday of Enid Strict brought to mind the time she rearranged the letters of SANTA to spell, well, you know. . .
    I just explained that to Young Son, who had never noticed. He’s sitting here stunned, as if it must have some deeper meaning. 🙂


    Comment by
    Daryl Cobranchi
    November 28th, 2007
    at 12:28 pm

    JJ–

    That was the funniest thing I’ve read in ages. Perfect!!!


    Comment by
    COD
    November 28th, 2007
    at 12:39 pm

    Unfortunately, a clip of the Santa/Satan bit from SNL does not appear to exist on the Internet. The best I can find is a transcript.


    Comment by
    Mimi
    November 28th, 2007
    at 1:18 pm

    I do not see how the presence of a stack of Bibles in a public school means that they were being “pushed on the child”? How was the child pushed to pick it up or read it?

    I see the public schools as providing LOTS of different information, much of which has as strong agendas and powerful worldviews. If we start to ban books, where does it end?

    Mimi


    Comment by
    don
    November 28th, 2007
    at 1:31 pm

    “If it was ANY OTHER book, this incident would have been a non-incident.”

    Yeah, right. I’m sure if it had been the aforementioned Satanic Bible, or even the Qur’an for that matter, noboby would have complained. Get real. All of the self-righteous Christians (like the lady who wrote the letter) would have been all over that.


    Comment by
    JJ Ross
    November 28th, 2007
    at 1:42 pm

    What banning? Bet there are Bibles on the shelves of that school library and isn’t the Bible still the best selling book in the world?

    OTOH the larger issue of “giveways” to schools is worth examining, and actually pretty complex. I recall a private donation of playground equipment to an elementary school that our board was ready to accept gratefully, until the facilities team explained the maintenance costs and potential safety problems with this type of equipment.


    Comment by
    JJ Ross
    November 28th, 2007
    at 1:54 pm

    Ooh, another connection!
    The kids and I watched a documentary based on the declassification of Sputnik-era documents, all riveted to learn that President Eisenhower purposely let the Russians put the first satellite into orbit and took the heat for us getting “beat” as aprt of his secret strategy to establish a precedent that the Russians couldn’t later take back — about national air space control not extending up into orbit. So he let them do it first without complaining, and without revealing how he would turn it against them for spying on them later.

    Is that too obscure? What I mean is that all this stuff, all this fighting over kids and education and schooling, fits together into larger competing strategies, few of which are honestly laid on the table at the time. Self-justified by the greater good, of course, but almost never REALLY about knowledge and science, teaching and learning, progress and the public’s right to know.


    Comment by
    Daryl Cobranchi
    November 28th, 2007
    at 1:57 pm

    The original story indicated the teacher placed the Bibles at the back of the classroom and then announced that they were available. All of the kids save one dutifully lined up to pick up their free Bibles. The one kid was teased by his classmates and finally took one.

    Yes, they were “pushed.”


    Comment by
    COD
    November 28th, 2007
    at 2:09 pm

    Nice to see they are teaching that “christian tolerance” at an early age in NC.


    Comment by
    Nance Confer
    November 28th, 2007
    at 2:54 pm

    I see the public schools as providing LOTS of different information, much of which has as strong agendas and powerful worldviews. If we start to ban books, where does it end?

    Mimi

    ***************

    And judgement be damned! Is that the suggestion?

    Should I call up Hustler Magazine and have them deliver a stack to your local pubic school and church lobby?

    Heck, we wouldn’t want to “ban” anyone.

    Or would we? Would it be better it we showed at least a small understanding of the meaning of our Constitution and laws? Would it be better if we treated each other with dignity and respect and didn’t try to force our beliefs on each others’ children? (Note: These folks did not come to the adults at home. The went after a captive audience of young children.)

    Keep your religion — you have that right. But keep it to yourself. I have the right to be left alone as do my children.

    Nance


    Comment by
    JJ Ross
    November 28th, 2007
    at 3:18 pm

    Captive audience of children, no kidding!

    Most public school issues would melt away like magic, if just this ONE THING changed.


    Comment by
    Mimi
    November 28th, 2007
    at 4:05 pm

    Ofcourse there are books we do not want children to read. But, the Bible? Yes, I am certainly coming from a pro-Bible perspective, but even if I wasn’t, what is wrong with the Gideons making the best selling book of all time, the one that is considered to be the Word of God by the Founders of this country, available to children who can freely pick it up or not. Assuming Daryl’s argument that they were “pushed” by peer pressure which is plausible, why couldn’t their parent discard it or give it away if they do not choose to have their child “exposed” to the Bible.

    My point is-why criticize the presence of a stack of Bibles donated to a public school when there are stacks of books that contain worldviews that many people find offensive and inaccurate throughout the entire school, on telelvision, on billboards, even in our homeschools, etc etc?

    Mimi


    Comment by
    JJ Ross
    November 28th, 2007
    at 4:29 pm

    Because our nation’s kids are not eyes for eyes, in some escalating game of I Demand My Right to Be Just as Wrong as The Other Guys.


    Comment by
    COD
    November 28th, 2007
    at 5:37 pm

    I demand that The Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster be handed out in NC public schools. After all, what’s wrong with providing children an opportunity to be touched by His Noodly Appendage? It’s simply not fair that my children know the truth of creation and the real cause of global warming, while so many school kids are in the dark.


    Comment by
    Daryl Cobranchi
    November 28th, 2007
    at 6:35 pm

    Mimi,

    Can I presume that you would not object to, say, the Detroit public schools (some of which are majority Muslim) handing our Korans? Your kid might feel pressured to take one, but you could always throw it away later. And, may I further presume that you would have no problem with class time (and your tax dollars) being spent to further this religious activity?


    Comment by
    Mimi
    November 28th, 2007
    at 7:39 pm

    I would not object to Mjuslims handing out Korans in the public school.

    To encourage religious freedom and the excerisizng of FREE WILL, I think we need to allow (even encrouage? ALL expressions of religious freedom, even that which is antithetical the view we hold.

    However, I would not approve of the government paying for it.

    My kids, to my knowledge, have never seen a Koran and I think it would be fascinating to review it. How can they know what they DO believe unless they have also been challenged by what other people believe?

    This is why we teach evolution as a theory in our Academies which makes a lot of our Christian families freak a bit, because I really think kids need to be informed of what other people believe. Information is empowerment. Do we really want our kids not to know what evolution is because we are so concerned that they will be “exoposed” to a view we don’t necessarily embrace?

    Mimii


    Comment by
    Daryl Cobranchi
    November 28th, 2007
    at 7:52 pm

    Funny you should mention evolution as we’ve been having a related discussion on HSWatch. I must say I’m pleasantly surprised at your egalitarian attitude, even if I can’t agree. The Establishment Clause (as it is currently interpreted) clearly prohibits the g-schools from getting this entangled with religion.

    The Gideons ought to just stand out on the sidewalk in front of the school and hand them out there. That was the policy in DE. I thought it was the policy nationwide.


    Comment by
    Mimi
    November 28th, 2007
    at 8:14 pm

    Your evolution wiki is a great concept. When you say “You must believe that evolution is the best explanation we have today to explain how life has progressed on planet Earth. If evolution is compatible with your religion (or lack thereof) feel free to create your page here. “, are you referring to the concept that human beings evolved from the primordial ooze onto single cell amoebas and fish and crocodiles and eventually monkeys?

    I did not think there were any “rational people” who actually believed that unbelievable fantasy anymore!

    I think it takes a much more incredible leap of faith (faith in what is the key question here) to believe the scenario I just described than to believe in Intellligent Design.

    Mimi


    Comment by
    Daryl Cobranchi
    November 28th, 2007
    at 8:28 pm

    are you referring to the concept that human beings evolved from the primordial ooze onto single cell amoebas and fish and crocodiles and eventually monkeys?

    No. Abiogenesis is not evoltuionary theory. And man did not evolve from monkeys. Man and monkeys share a common ancestor (about 4 MYA I believe).

    I did not think there were any “rational people” who actually believed that unbelievable fantasy anymore!

    Good one. Yes, a few rational people still accept (not believe in) evolutionary theory. Like nearly every scientist on the planet.


    Comment by
    Mimi
    November 28th, 2007
    at 8:36 pm

    Didn’t even Darwin himself recant the whole evotionary theory because his theories all fell apart because there is no evolutionary string that accounts for the development of the human eye?


    Comment by
    COD
    November 28th, 2007
    at 8:38 pm

    Mimi keeps using that word rational. I do not think it means what she thinks it means 🙂


    Comment by
    Mimi
    November 28th, 2007
    at 8:50 pm

    I think I will answer my own question…

    A brief search of this subject brought up many many links that declare that this story that darwin recanted is untrue, but the miost compelling one came from this site:

    Some arguments creationists should avoid
    [For a fuller, frequently updated list, see Q&A: Arguments creationists should NOT use; see also Arguments Creationists Should NOT Use (DVD, right)—Ed.]

    creati...w/440/

    ‘Darwin recanted on his deathbed.’
    Many people use this story, originally from a Lady Hope. However, it is almost certainly not true, and there is no corroboration from those who were closest to him, even from Darwin’s wife Emma, who never liked evolutionary theory. Also, even if true, so what? If Ken Ham recanted Creation, would that disprove it? So there is no value to this argument whatever.

    What is HS Watch?

    Mimi


    Comment by
    Daryl Cobranchi
    November 28th, 2007
    at 8:57 pm

    No. A comforting myth, that’s all.


    Comment by
    Daryl Cobranchi
    November 28th, 2007
    at 9:02 pm

    And another link to the highly reputable talkorigins.


    Comment by
    Daryl Cobranchi
    November 28th, 2007
    at 9:20 pm

    And here’s a refutation of the eye argument. You really need to come up with some new material, Mimi, if you’re going to keep up around here. 🙂


    Comment by
    Daryl Cobranchi
    November 28th, 2007
    at 9:23 pm

    HSWatch is Kay Brooks’ list-serv. JJ and I were talking about it earlier in this thread.