Utterly Meaningless

Daryl,
I think it has to do with state standards. I’m not in MA, but here in Maine, it sounds like a similar situation. I sometimes tell parents of high schoolers if they are going to re-enter their teenagers in public high school to be prepared for the possibility that children’s homeschool highschool work will be rejected for credit and that even if it is accepted that Learning Results would still need to be met. Parents would really have to homeschool under the direct supervision of a public school to even try to meet the Learning Results (and that might not even work). I think that even the private schoolers (i.e., private Christian schools) have things to worry about too. They might get the credits, but they have to meet Maine’s Learning Results which they wouldn’t have done at a private Christian school. Here, there is a diploma and there is a certificate in regards to meeting the state’s Learning Results. Graduating is a two-fold process.

My thought is that the school district want the parents to be informed and prepared. I don’t blame them. They should be.

wnat the parents to be informed and prepared for what, exactly? The kid in the second example was from another state. Is it reasonable to expect any kid’s parents from another state to be prepared for absurd legislation?

CS,
I don’t see where it is about legislation. The school has a policy as it relates to the requirement of students fulfilling state standards. When homeschool families are moving into another state they research the homeschool laws before they move. Why wouldn’t it be expected that parents would do the same when it comes into entering public high school? The public schools just need to be clearer on their policy.
BTW, in Maine, the learning results (how they are applied in the curricula) are different from school district to school district. I think eventually the solution will be standardization for the whole state and then the nation.

I’m confused, I thought Annette is was a homeschool advocate? Apparently, she is just an educrat in disguise, because ONLY an educrat could see logic in those lame ass regulations.

Its obvious the school district doesn’t even understand its policies, because they let the homeschooled kid enter as a junior. How can a parent be aware of that?

Also, clearly it isn’t about knowledge gained, a child under these circumstances could have all, and more of the requirements under his belt, but would still be forced to serve time. That’s prison, not education.

I have to wonder why the hsers would want to enroll to start with.

Smart kid, good in math but wants. . . what? To meet more kids his age? OK then. He goes and coasts through Algebra 1 and is dating before you know it!

Smart girl, same motivation but let’s say she wants to be in the school band. So she’s years older than all the other band members, except for the seniors. Good for her — she’s first chair after the first year in. And acing her classes which are way too easy for her. And dating before you know it!

So she or he are now 20 or 21 and a senior in high school? So what? All these classes are easy and they are the oldest students around. They’ve got cars. They’ve got all the wisdom that comes with turning 20. Hey, they run the campus!

How long before someone notices this might not be such a healthy idea? 🙂

Nance

I don’t get it–didn’t these kids ‘prove’ their abilities by some kind of testing? I mean the boy ‘tested’ college level in math and the girl was eligible for National Honor Society. Isn’t this worth something?? I mean, the girl was three quarters through her junior year doing very well apparently(showing she was where she should be) and they tell her she has to do yet another year? This is just ludicrous… Its not like they were failing or struggling in school or anything.—

Chris wrote: I’m confused, I thought Annette is was a homeschool advocate? Apparently, she is just an educrat in disguise, because ONLY an educrat could see logic in those lame ass regulations.

Chris,
I am a homeschool advocate. That means I’m interested in supporting parents in homeschooling their children. I’m not an advocate in changing public school for the sake of homeschoolers who no longer want to homeschool. I never said I saw the logic in the school district’s **policy**. I have had this type of situation explained to me well enough by a high school guidance counselor (who homeschools his children) and parents who enrolled their former homeschooled children in public high school. I respect public schools making their own policies. I think the role of the homeschool advocate is just trying to get the word out that re-entering ps as a sophomore or a junior, in my state, will be a problem due to state standards. What do you suppose homeschool advocates should *do* about it, Chris? Put up such a fit that the state legislature sees a reason to require homeschoolers to be under the state standards –in the event the homeschool children might want to go to public high school?

Is that the bogeyman this time?

Nance

Courts might find this unjustfied discrimination against a class of kids — the formerly home-educated. Some of us made a similar case informally in my district several years ago.
School administrators and homeschool parents were able to agree we all were advocates for kids and learning success, rather than advocates of particular titles, programs, institutions, identities or battle lines – and it’s pretty straightforward to unite otherwise opposed interest groups against unfair discrimination, especially discrimination against kids, the very kids that all education law exists to help succeed.

Is it really discrimination? What if private school students are held to the same line? It seems to me that this public school is holding to what the requirements are for all their students. Is it not asking for a special status for hsers to be the exception?

Annette,

You have absolutely no evidence that this is the case. And, though I can’t prove otherwise, I’d be willing to bet any amount that you name that this isn’t the case.

So you think it is discrimination?

If the American Univeristy system can deal with students testing out of certain classes or requirements, I don’t see why the public schools can’t handle the same thing. And not just for HEKS, for everybody. If your a science wiz that knows more than the teacher, you ought to be able to test out and not waste your time in the class. And if you are smart enough to test out of a grade or three, so be it.

Yeah.

Daryl wrote: If the girl in the second example had transferred from any other school, public or private, in-state or out, she’d have been placed in the 11th grade with no questions asked.

What evidence do you have if the student came from a private school that no questions would have been asked? In elementary schools in my state of Maine, you would be right. But this would not be the case, for a private school that is exempt from state standards. The carniege unit which reflects seat time, would probably allow for a transfer of private school credits (North Atlantic Regional High School would certainly be one exception with at least one area high school here. Hsers would need to bring in all their work to be reviewed by each teacher of each class in that case), but there is still the requirement of the state standards which can be separate from the credits issue. I’m using Maine info because I’m trying to understand why you think discrimination is an issue. In my perspective, this article could have originated out of my Maine because it sounds like a very similar situation. I have told hs parents that if they want to re-enter their children in high school they should do it as a freshman and save themselves later frustration with the high school. Is this a situation, one mentioned in the article, that hsers should work to change? Or should they just accept it as a reality and plan accordingly? My opinion is working to change it would create a need in the minds of educrats that hsers should be under state standards so that these types of situations can be avoided.

maine....me.htm
State law requires all K-12 public schools in Maine to use the Learning Results as the basis for instruction and assessment of student achievement, as well as for granting high school diplomas.

Maine’s Learning Results:
maine....ce.htm

Annette,

Your argument makes no sense. Think about it for a minute– If a student moved into Maine from any other state in the summer before her senior year, are you actually claiming that state law would MANDATE that she start over in 9th grade in order to meet the Learning Standards? I can’t believe even educrats could be that dumb. I’d bet any amount of money (Care to wager?) that the same would hold true for private schools in or out of state. The only group that would seem to be affected by this policy (if indeed it exists in Maine) would be homeschoolers.

The state learning standards are evaluated by the MEA, no? Then why could the homeschooled students not merely take the tests (as Chris suggested above). Again, I find it ludicrous to think that Maine’s learning standards are based on seat time counting only schools controlled by the state government and excluding those in the remaining 49 states (plus 100+ foreign countries).

Daryl, what is my argument here? I have given factual information and asked questions as it relates to my state and then the article.

Credits are based on seat time, learning standards are not. Two distinct things.

I don’t believe there have been any conflicts with students transferring from a public school out of state to a public school here. I do know there have been issues with local Christian schools’ students transferring to a local public high school. Credits were transferred, but steps had to be taken to ensure that the student did meet the state standards. Perhaps, they were allowed to take the MEAs. I’m not sure how it worked out. But with hsers, there is the prove the seat time issue and content for the credits and then the Learning Results. A two-fold issue unlike the private Christian schools. Implementation of Learning Results and determining if they were met is a local thing, not a state thing.

I am saying that a public school can determine a student’s credits transfer, but they have to start a square one in meeting the state standards if the public school decides that is what they want. A senior can have all the number of credits to graduate, but if they haven’t accomplished the Learning Results they cannot get a diploma. They need a certificate of completion (I think that is the term) that they have achieved Learning Results. as well.

Interesting that Maine-based “North Atlantic Regional High School” would come up in this context.

Last summer I recommended NARHS to the parents of a public high school junior here, who had passed all required tests and earned core subject credits but needed another year of seat time in high school to be “graduated” and saw no point. He was ready for a professional performing career. His folks supported were on his side, but knew how easy it was to lose the momentum toward completing bureaucratic requirements for pieces of paper, and didn’t want him to regret not having the diploma later.

Since then, he’s traveled and worked constantly in his field, qualified to join his Guild, danced professionally at both Disneyworld and on cruiseships in Mexico and Alaska, auditioned for Broadway shows. Instead of wasting that year learning nothing, doing a slow boil both at home AND at school.

So for them, NARHS was the perfect solution and it helped this family by doing the same credit-review process Massachusetts claims is so important, but in reverse — a critical home education assessment of credits earned in PS to privately award the publicly accepted credential!

As home education philosophy in practice proves itself evermore responsibile, resourceful and humane compared to bureaucratic schooling pretending to be “education” — life gets better for us all rather than worse. That’s the only true test progressive pubic policy must pass, imo.

Just for your info: A NARHS diploma is worthless to the Navy.

[snorting derisively, not at the Navy or its diploma rules, but the absurdity of this kid or his family caring about THAT]

Whenever I hear “info” and “facts” offered in this spirit, I think of the musical 1776 when John Dickinson of PA says to John Adams of MA: “you have this annoying way of making delightful words like “property” sound so distasteful!”

Oh, I’m sure if Twinkle Toes ever has his heart set on allowing a drill sergeant or superior officer to tell him when he can and can’t dance and sing, he’ll be disappointed.

Bully for him, JJRoss… it makes my whole day whenever I hear about a talented kid being successful and happy in the arts, or in his chosen field, whatever it is.

NARS graduates have been accepted into every branch of the US Armed Forces. But keep in mind that just “having” a diploma is not the only criteria for acceptance into the military — you must also have a reasonable score on the ASVAB, pass a personal interview, and otherwise meet the criteria they have established at that time. Criteria change, especially in time of war, and there is no way of knowing (enough in advance) to prepare all students for military eligibility.
************
That’s from the NARS FAQ — narhs....rint/1

Nance

Thanks. 🙂

He IS an education success story, in more ways than one. He was in town last week before joining rehearsals for this year’s Magic Kingdom Castle Christmas Show and I paid him double to work with my 11-year-old unschooled son for a couple of hours, knowing he needed the cash and also that he now understands better than most certified traditional dance teachers, how important it is to look for the unique best in each individual kid rather than stamping ’em out as if boys were just like girls, and they were all little lumps of clay to be molded with no personal differences.

They had a super time, worked up a jazz duet based on Pirates of the Caribbean all because he knows MY SON so well, not because he knows technical dance instruction so well.

Which reminds me of something I blogged after Wimbledon, making the same general point of developing and celebrating individual talent . . . 🙂

I offered the NARHS/Navy comment based on personal experience. My son has a NARHS diploma and is in the Navy. However, the Navy rejected the diploma and my son had his credits transferred (not all credits transferred) to a public school., and he did an extra year of high school at an adult ed. program. NARHS was not helpful in the least bit in the situation. So it is true that students have been accepted into all branches of the armed services, but not on the basis of their NARHS diplomas. My son payed for NARHS and he feels it was a waste of his money. BTW, his ASVAB score was very good and it gave him a wider range to select his particular job.
Buyer beware is all.

I don’t get why you wouldn’t want to see it changed then, since you have experienced the unfairness of it directly?

Change what? We are talking about two completely different things that would have to be changed for homeschoolers to have an easy or easier way. Tell me how to bring about change without any risk to homeschool freedoms. Sure, I’d like things to change so that would homeschoolers will have an easier way. Where did I say that I didn’t want change? But what would that change really mean?

My son already had the option of trying to enter the Navy just on the basis of being a homeschooler. Remember HSLDA’s efforts to have homeschoolers enter the Navy with Tier 1 status? My son didn’t want to go into the Navy with baggage. He took what he thought to be a clean (versus messy), but a more difficult route. BTW, virtual charter students aren’t able to go in as Tier 1 even with a public high school diploma (now hsers can). So you might want to put that on your list as something that stands as an injustice and needing to be changed.

I’m not sure unfairness translates to discrimination.

I meant wanting to change the bureaucratic mindset that would justify such rules anywhere — rules that require form over substance, not merely when it’s unjustified but even when it’s counterproductive. That’s the worst of government, not some necessary evil, and I don’t see why we should defend and rationalize it.
Why not fight it instead?
Standing up against it as stupid and wasteful and unfair –for any young person, not only for homeschoolers — and demanding that it prove itself effective enough to justify the unfairnesst, seemsto me like SUPPORTING home education and other important freedoms. Not to do so is the real risk.

In the realm of substance, you would be encouraging hsers to take a stand against state learning standards for public schoolers. That’s a big battle to fight and one that isn’t likely to be won. Who would partner with hsers to do that? If it wasn’t for schools failing to meet state standards, options such as public virtual schools probably wouldn’t even be an issue as much of that legislation came in on the basis of parents having school choice if their children’s school was failing.
When state standards are about “*All** children shall know& do”, that if homeschoolers & non-govt. funded private schoolers are exempt (at least in my state), then I’m resigned to be content with that while staying vigilant that remains the case.

Sure, fwiw, I’d like to change bureaucratic mindset, but there is no substance in wanting something; nor is there any substance in your recommendation on how to fight it. And one person’s sense of justice is not necessarily the same as another person’s.

Annette,

Throughout this thread you’ve continually mixed up the state “learning standards” with course credit. The learning standards are typically assessed by high-stakes testing. Many states administer them in 11th grade. HEKs who enroll in the g-schools should sit for the state tests.

States also require a certain number of course credits in order to qualify for a diploma. When I graduated in ’80 it was 18. Nowadays it’s more like 22 or 23. Those are the “seat time” credits that we were talking about earlier.

Schools routinely accept credits from out of state public schools and often from in state private schools. I have NEVER heard of a school that refused to even CONSIDER accepting transfer credits.

That is the effect of the MA (not ME) policy. For all HEKs, all of their schoolwork at the high school level is deemed to be insufficient to qualify for transfer credit.

I agree with JJ– That policy is discrimantory and should end.

Daryl,
I have tried to tell you that getting a public high school diploma in Maine is not just based on course credit. Private schools can get their credits transferred (NARHS is not the case with at least one private high school here). Would you like the name of a high school where this is the case? Private school students still have to achieve the learning standards. I’m quite sure that would be for each grade level for high school, but I’d have to double check with a guidance counselor. I know of Maine public high schools that will not accept homeschoolers’ work and they start from scratch in credits and in having to meet the standards. I

‘d like it to end too, but how can this be kept from being a homeschool issue where educrats get the idea that hsers want to be under state standards so that these types of situations don’t happen? Wanting something isn’t enough to make it happen, and it isn’t always wise to fight for something on the basis of injustice versus just knowing ahead and planning for it.

Correction: (NARHS is not the case with at least one private high school here)

I meant public high school. I was trying not to burn the soup. I suceeded. 🙂

Clarification: private high school students who enroll in public high school are still required to show that they have accomplished the Learning Results.

I’d be curious if you wanted to enroll one of your children (if they were old enough) what would be required of you to have their homeschool high school credits transferred and with regard to state learning standards? Maybe Maine is just an odd state. Although, I still think MA is right there along with us.

I have tried to tell you that getting a public high school diploma in Maine is not just based on course credit.

No shit. I understand perfectly. The point is that the schools are treating homeschoolers differently from every other type of school.

Yes, all kids would have to pass the state accountability/high stakes tests. Including homeschoolers who enroll. That is NOT what the policy in Massachussetts was all about. Instead, the schools are refusing to accept ANY homeschooled work as being even potentially worthy of tranferring in. That policy should end.

It has NOTHING to do with homeschoolers being under the state standards, nor in wanting special privileges. It is merely a matter of fairness.

Super said: Superintendent James A. Caradonio said the policy exists to ensure “quality of instruction.” “It’s a question of standards,” …

He said standards, you say it isn’t. So you have come to the conclusion he is lying?

No, but I have come to the conclusion that you are impossibly dense.

Their policy regarding homeschoolers may have something to do with state funding. In Jackson County Mississippi 3 girls who attended public school and had all the credits they needed to graduated were denied early graduation because if they granted these 3 girls request to graduate early it would set a precedent and if the numerous others who also had the credits to graduate early asked they would lose to much state funding. Better to have a warm body in the seat and get the $, then that the kids actually learn something.

The attitude of the school board regarding these girls request along with their mandatory school uniform policy were the two key issues that pushed us into homeschooling

The obnoxious policy is probably an attempt to get state funding for 4 years out of homeschool students.

I agree the policy needs to be changed.