Utterly Meaningless

Could it be simple rebellion? If the government is telling you to do something then it automatically becomes a bad idea. There is a certain segment of the homeschool population that seems to believe we have an obligation to actively oppose everything the government does that might potentially someday affect us, even the stuff that is totally innocuous, or maybe even good.

That might be part of it, but I detect a true paranoia worthy of the most avid conspiracy theorists.

I’d say both, but surely homeschooling is an innocent bystander and not the cause–doesn’t the reactionary mindset afflict some segment of any population? Heck, I was skim-reading “Walking on Eggshells” standing up in B&N yesterday, all about how to deal with “borderline personality disorder” because Favorite Daughter has one perverse adult in her life we’re still frustrated in trying to help her deal with. It was unnerving to realize the book’s descriptions fit not just this one person, but perhaps 20 percent of everyone we know IRL! (not to mention disordered personalities we know all too well online)

Maybe society itself has developed borderline personality disorder? Some days it feels like that must be the answer . . .

Well, to be fair (though I say this without first-hand knowledge of exactly what has caused you to ask the question), the kind of person who can question prevailing educational orthodoxy is liable to question all kinds of orthodoxies. Medical science is hardly infallible, though of course that doesn’t release people from the obligation to question intelligently.

There’s also the point that many in HE probably made that decision on an emotional rather than a rational basis, so why should this be any different?

A couple of recent examples:

FWIW Daryl.. this vaccine has not been tested enough and is only being promoted
to help bring in quick money to Merck to pay for the Vioxx lawsuits. They are
promoting it through scare tactics as well. (Did your wife make up that part of
the campaign too?)

Women in Government is promoting this and Merck is bankrolling legislators
heavily to get it made mandatory so they can make their 2-4 billion a year.

Where will you and your wife be 10 years from now when girls have auto immune
disorder or deformed babies from this hastily put together vaccine? It hasn’t
nearly been tested enough. Hmm …I wonder have your kids marched off to get
this vaccine yet?

There is no need to make this vaccine mandatory. You call yourself a
libertarian (small l or otherwise) ? It doesn’t even guarantee to prevent
cervical cancer.. one still needs a pap smear ..and it only lasts 4 years..they
don’t even have enough information to say whether one will need a booster.. and
this vaccine doesn’t cover all strains of HPV. Give me a break..

have you seen the Women in Government website?
womeni...yMap2-\
1-2007.pdf
and
womeni...ntion/
(oh sure you have – your wife probably designed it.)

have you seen the list of sponsors of this organization ?
womeni...rs.asp

They are a tool of Big Pharma..
to hell with bullshit about it being for “the well being of our daughters”..
this is all about the money honey. You know it too.
and the way Merck is working through legislators is despicable, and probably
illegal

And this:

OUR GIRLS ARE THE TEST!!!! DUH – Not Duh to YOU. BUT DUH to anyone who is considering this!!

And then there was this one:

You don’t get it nor do you care to. Not to refuse to have children
against X can create a POOL which will enhance, preserve and empower the
disease tomutate, spread further and lead to more disease. This is an age
old gig that is put out when people are more educated in the general
population. There’s no testing babies walking in ignorance. Now people
question. So, next…scare.

We went through this with spinal meningitus several years ago. The WHOLE
state was innoculated irresponsibly. Led to all sorts of stuff. Can’t go
there. How about innoculating the boys to eliminate their ability to
contract or to spread????? Hmm wonder why they didn’t do that?

Agreed, with the same caveat — education orthodoxy is like political or religious orthodoxy, splintered into major and minor warring factions deadly certain their way is THE way. Education is contentious and defensive if not paranoid, even without HE anywhere in the conversation.

lol…so you have it too! No wonder I still wander over your way for a bit of good sense for once!

My reaction to this is not anti-vaccine — because I have vaccinated my daughter in accordance with our state laws so she can be in Girl Scouts and other public activities — but the fact that our governor did an end-run around the legislature and is mandating this expensive vaccine to my pre-teen.

It’s an unfortunate fact that many Texans don’t have insurance or insurance on their children (if I wanted the same insurance coverage I had as a working wife/no kids, we would have close to $900 per month taken out of my husband’s paycheck; we’ve opted for a lot less coverage and higher deductibles), so Texas taxpayers and Texas insurance customers will pick up the cost. The insurance industry in Texas is a rip-off to begin with…don’t think they’re not going to spread the cost of paying for the vaccine around.

I agree with vaccinating for chicken pox and measles and other diseases that spread readily in a classroom or group get-together. But shouldn’t vaccinating my 11 year old daughter against cervical cancer be a personal decision, not a government mandate?

I agree with vaccinating for chicken pox and measles and other diseases that spread readily in a classroom or group get-together. But shouldn’t vaccinating my 11 year old daughter against cervical cancer be a personal decision, not a government mandate?

Yeah, I’m not in favor of making this mandatory and, BION, neither were the Merck folks who developed and marketed the vaccine. But the assumption that all vaccines are bad and that the pharmaceutical companies are just full of little Mengeles seems to be pervasive across a broad swath of home educators.

Daryl,

I’ve been watching the conversation that you’re talking about. I hate to break it to you, but you’ve been caught in that list’s extreme reactionary wave. They do this for *everything* they talk about. And when I say “they”, it’s a handful of people who treat everyone who doesn’t completely agree with them like stupid children, with little or no respect for people who don’t tow the line.

I find it painfully ironic. *sigh*

But, on all the other lists I’m on where they are talking about this vaccine and its implications, I haven’t seen arguing or fanaticism. For the most part, the discussion has been respectful and informative.

As with all populations, there are always a few who take the extreme view and insist that their own view is the right one. And even if it might just be, it’s impossible to engage in a real conversation with them because they give off the impression like they think anyone who doesn’t agree is an idiot. Oh, and they don’t listen to anyone, or consider anyone’s opinion, cuz, you see, they already know all the answers and already did all the research. They have nothing left to learn, unless it supports their opinion.

This isn’t a homeschooling thing, this is an individual thing. These individuals exist anywhere you go.

So, to sum up, I don’t think “homeschoolers” are, in particular, more likely to be fanatically opposed to the vaccine, or to vaccines in general. Although, I do see how, as a group, they would be more likely to have an idea of what they are for and to know that they have the right to refuse it. They are also more likely to discuss the pros and cons before making a decision, instead of blindly accepting them all without asking questions.

I have no idea where the anti-vaccine thing comes from, but it does seem to coincide some with the homeschooling groups I’m in. As does homebirthing, breastfeeding, cloth diapering, and attachment parenting. These are “secular” and “inclusive” groups, though there are of course many devoutly religious people in them.

In any case, I’ve already talked to my pediatrician to get his opinion if my kids (and I) should get extra boosters of anything since their vaccines are (slightly) more likely to be challenged than average, as we socialize in an under-vaccinated population.

Dunno which bad barrel of sour and acid reactionaries this was — thank goodness! — but here’s a different perspective about whether they really act as “individuals” when they gang up to dehumanize others, and things escalate unreason, spread disinformation, etc. It’s a psychological analysis of Abu Girab. It fits what I’ve seen happen in “homeschool” discussions, supposedly among autonomous individuals who are thinking for themselves and behaving rationally.
(If only we’d discover an effective vaccine against this kind of social infection!)

I’ll have to do some research on this myself, as much as a nonscientist can do anyway, and decide what to do for my own daughters. Something I heard this morning gave me pause though. The Texas governor’s former chief of staff is now a lobbyist for Merck. Just a coincidence I’m sure.

The Texas governor’s former chief of staff is now a lobbyist for Merck. Just a coincidence I’m sure.
***
Me:

No, I’m sure it’s not a coincidence. I’m sure that any lobbying connection has great and direct benefits for all involved.

Which does nothing, however, to address whether this vac is a good idea.

***
I agree with vaccinating for chicken pox and measles and other diseases that spread readily in a classroom or group get-together. But shouldn’t vaccinating my 11 year old daughter against cervical cancer be a personal decision, not a government mandate?

Me:

Personally, I have resisted the chicken pox vac for my kids because I understand that it wears off fairly quickly — when they would be in their 20s. I am torn about getting this one. The pediatricians haven’t pushed it one way or the other . . .

As far as the government mandate part of this HPV vac, my understanding is that this makes it something that insurance (including state insurance plans for poor people or Medicaid) then has to cover. This is, from what I have read, a very expensive shot to get if you have to pay for it privately.

So, the idea would be that those who want it wouldn’t be excluded because of cost.

My initial reaction to it was negative. I questioned the need for it. It seemed to me to be something that was being touted as the cure for a disease that relatively few people get. And the way the numbers were used ticked me off — since almost all of us get the virus at some point in our lifetime this was used as a scare tactic with, I thought, very little focus on how many people actually get cervical cancer.

But I have become more comfortable with this vac of late. We’ll be having a nice chat with DD’s pediatrician at her next visit. 🙂

And about hsers and vacs — I run a private school for hsers here in FL and I’d guess about 1/3-1/2 take the vac exemption. Now, here anyway, a great many hsers are Christians of varying stripes and this is reflected in the exemptions.

Which leads to some strange conversations sometimes, as I am not a Christian of any stripe. 🙂

Nance

1. If the vaccine is so wonderful, why does it have to be mandated?

2. If I have a bad reaction to the vaccine, who pays? Merck or my tax dollars?

I meant, compensates, sorry.

1. If the vaccine is so wonderful, why does it have to be mandated?

I think Nance’s comment above about insurance is a part of this. The cost of the three injection series is about $350 before office fees.

2. If I have a bad reaction to the vaccine, who pays? Merck or my tax dollars?

Assuming you mean that you would require some kind of medical intervention, your insurance would pay. Of course you’d always be free to sue Merck for pain & suffering.

Could be tax dollars — before suing a vaccine maker, you have to file a claim with the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program. If your claim is denied or you don’t like the award offer, you can then go ahead and sue directly.

I am wholeheartedly and passionately against government mandated medical care. That vaccine should be my CHOICE. It should be everyone’s CHOICE. It should also be everyone’s opportunity. But I will not have the government make medical decisions for myself or for my children.

That’s the pure medical choice stand –for reproductive rights, Terri Schiavo’s rights, stem cell research, cryogenics, personal health insurance etc– but then I wonder if there’s a coherent argument to be made by those who oppose vaccination policy but believe government SHOULD control choice in any other medical context?

Kidney-selling? 😉

Coherent argument? You sure set the bar high! 🙂

Nance

I think that homeschoolers for the most part are people who question authority. I, for example, know that the government has multiplictous agendas as do most institutions including the church, medicine and the law, to name a few. Just because it is authorized by the government does not mean is necessarily wrong, but it sure doesn’t mean it is right either.

My thought on the original question on why homeschoolers seem to be the majority of anti-vaccine people is simple. Because they can. When you enroll in school you are told “current, required vaccinations are mandatory” period, no ifs ands or buts. Most parents are not aware that there is always an opt out option for 1, some or all vaccines. Homeschoolers don’t get that immediate pressure when their kid turns 5 to have those vaccine records in hand. So, they have time to read about it, think about it, or just put it off.
As for the new vaccine, I think like the HEP B vaccine it is strange to be vaccinating children and babies against sexually transmitted diseases. It just seems weird to me! But when my DD is ready to become sexually active, or starts dating or whatever, we’ll discuss it. My kids did not get the chicken pox vaccine for the same reason someone else mentioned. It wears off. Then what? Your 30 and you get chicken pox? Or, perhaps with the vaccine, chicken pox will be gone by the time my kids are 30. I don’t know. My oldest, ‘homeschooled since birth’ son will 16 this year and still hasn’t gotten CP, maybe he and I will decide he would be safer at some point to just get the shot. But see, I have that option, because I don’t have the school breathing down my neck to make a choice this very minute.